Episode 104: How To Add Horror To Your D&D Game: An evening with Mitchell of Penny For A Tale

Brian Wiggins

0:02 This is the hidden roles podcast by dungeon masters for dungeon Master's. We are going to give you a peek on our side of the table. So you can see inside our notebooks and what we've been doing on our side of the screen. Now let me roll my warranty. Okay, check my table. And my guest this week is

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

0:30 My name is Mitchell and I am the chief director over at penny for retail.

Brian Wiggins

0:34 Now, fair warning, if you are a player in any of my games or in Mitchell's games, and you listen to this nice characters, you've got their be ashamed of something happened to them. Alrighty, my guest for this episode, as you've already heard, is Mitchum. And we're gonna be talking Dungeon Master stuff. So dude, thank you very, very much for taking time out of what has sounded like is a very busy schedule fresh away from Gen Con, to come on this podcast.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

1:10 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I drove nine hours to be on this podcast.

Brian Wiggins

1:14 Wow. I think you might have the record for the longest distance drive to remotely record a podcast. Yeah. Listen, like no, I'm not even home. I drove nine hours away just so I could.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

1:31 Yeah, exactly. I can take that crown and keep it.

Brian Wiggins

1:36 So tell me a little bit more about what it is that you do you people who are listening to the intro obviously heard the title. Tell us a little bit about a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

1:48 Yeah, of course. Most people know me as Mitch or Mitchell. I have no really no preference of whatever name. But I am the chief director over at penny for Intel LLC, which has two streaming channels, one of which has partnered the other affiliate, we've the tail and penny for attempt respectively. We mainly work with indie ttrpg to help promote via actual or pre recorded campaigns on streaming channels just twitch YouTube, as well as podcasting. Other than that, I also write and do a wee bit of game design in the ttrpg world via net probiotic. And then the upcoming ttrpg Chu which is releasing on Kickstarter, October 5. I also do a little art direction my lace latest work was flames of freedom by grim and perilous and yeah, that's kind of all the things I do. You also find me at conventions just helping the indie scene out selling their stuff.

Brian Wiggins

2:47 Do you sleep because it doesn't sound like you do.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

2:51 I try not to leave being is is not my favorite pastime in any retrospect. I I pretty much kept going buy coffee at all times.

Brian Wiggins

3:04 Okay, I can appreciate that. So what was the first ttrpg that you ever played?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

3:12 My first one was Dungeons and Dragons. Fourth Edition. Fourth Edition. Okay. Yeah, my friends invited me over. I thought it was super nerdy. And this was in grad school, too. I was getting I was majoring in public policy. University of Maryland. Oh, wow. Yeah. I had I had plans on becoming a politician when I got to DC. But when I got to DC, those plans changed. As they're want to do, but yeah, it was it was for EA and the first game was okay, but it was enough of an edge that I had to look into it and actually started LARPing more than I started ttrpg which had began my journey

Brian Wiggins

3:59 to the dark side. Exactly. We're actually if you're gonna be a politician, it was away from the dark side, we could say I mean,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

4:06 exactly. I was going back to the lands of rainbows and dream.

Brian Wiggins

4:11 Man, Do you ever feel like you dodged a bullet on that? Or

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

4:15 always? Oh, yeah, every time I look at the political arena, I'm like, Holy hell that would have changed me for the worse. That would have saw. Yeah, I'm glad I have in the environment I am now there's a lot more loving politics here

Brian Wiggins

4:38 truth. I would wager that if more and we've I've made jokes about this in the past, but it seems like there's always a kernel of truth because with my guests who brought it up as well, if more politicians played ttrpg they would probably be better. I don't know. Maybe Because there's a lot of listening and storytelling and commotion,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

5:02 yeah, I mean, and ttrpg is build empathy and listening skill true. Just the fact that you have to share the spotlight I think would be a good lesson for them.

Brian Wiggins

5:13 Oh, man. Oh, that's Wow. Okay, I'm trying to make notes here because I'm gonna have to make reference this stuff later. And yeah, that's a good one right there. Cool. What? So you started with fourth edition? So you dodged the 3.5 bullets. So that's good. Exactly. What's your Do you have a favorite ttrpg system?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

5:39 Yeah, I first system really, it's it's cults powered by the apocalypse system. Okay, which has a lot of cool horror themes that that are are intertwined in the mechanics. And I really love the lore. And it's just a very narrative game where you don't feel like you need to roll any time. So it's just really nice when you're trying to tell that nice horror story.

Brian Wiggins

6:07 And that nice little horrifying horror story. Exactly. So how did you end up making the transition from being a player to being behind the screen and taking on that, you know, sublime torture that is hurting all of the cats and running a ttrpg?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

6:27 Yeah, I, I think the more I played, the more I just kind of wanted to help steer the story. And so when my friends really wanted a one shot, I was like, low, let's do like a level 21 shot and let's see where it takes us. So that was my first one shot, and I enjoyed it. And I like worked really hard on the story. And it was a lot of fun. And then after that, it was just like, running games all the time from shadow run to colloca fu to delta green. It's just something I really enjoy. Because you can kind of see everyone's enthusiasm, and you're kind of partly responsible for the enjoyment of everyone at the table.

Brian Wiggins

7:17 Yeah. Okay, that's, yep, that's it. You just made me think of like, as much fun as it is to go see a show to see a play to see a moving. I have been on stage but I've also been on the crew and there is a unique pleasure to being on the crew knowing that you saw how the sausage was made beginning to see the story unfold from that point of view. And I guess it's kind of like being a DM. Yeah.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

7:43 Yeah, exactly. It's just, and then like having secret conversations with the other players and such and it's just a good old time.

Brian Wiggins

7:50 Yeah. Is there a system that because you've you rattled off quite a few there, is there one that you haven't had the opportunity to play yet that you would like to have played?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

8:02 Yeah, there is one French game called Polaris, which is a post apocalyptic like underwater ttrpg came out on Kickstarter, I think about three or four years ago, and I have it I've read through it and I've presented it as an option several times as a GM but it always comes in like second place. And so I hope to one day be able to play or run that ttrpg

Brian Wiggins

8:29 so what's what's that system? How's that system built? Is it more dice is it more RPG like how does that system go? Cuz I don't

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

8:37 I think it's a it's a nice mix and it has been some time since I've read through it and there's been a couple a great number of ttrpg is in between but from what I remember it it almost works like black void and that there's a unique dice and then you add modifiers and such but the modifiers and the numbers aren't as dramatic nor necessary as in five year or Pathfinder been and yeah I just had most of the book is lower so just seemed like a really cool like a nice little system that I could get behind and enjoy and I like some underwater shenanigans

Brian Wiggins

9:19 I I can understand that. Man I might have to check this out now Yeah, you should Yeah, it's really good some of the some of the most fun reading that you get out of this I mean the systems I mean, I love systems. But man if you've got some cool like I have a very special place in my heart for the exalted system and more just because of the world that that that they built for that game to be played in. It was just like Wow, man, this is Oh, yes.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

9:47 And I like the different kind of characters like between the like the the was at the solarz and the, the lunars and the Cid reels and stuff like that. There's just kind of different types of play style. Yeah into the same world with which I thought was really interesting. Yeah, I

Brian Wiggins

10:03 love that you have the ability to have like mortals and the yeah the soldiers and it kind of like what they meant to be like an anime and you know, yeah, so yeah. Oh, all right, well before we start getting too deep into those weeds favorite monster Do you have a favorite monster? Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

10:21 I definitely think I, me so called one of the ancient or the angels is called Mount couth. And malkuth is kind of this god that tries to reveal the truth. And I really liked that because on on its face It sounds very honest and unknowable. But the truth is very damning to humanity and to our psyche, so it's actually very, very evil. And so such a veil and monster I guess is is amazing. And I love how it just when when malkuth if about booth shows up, it's just kind of game over, man.

Brian Wiggins

11:09 I like that. That's such a good name, too.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

11:12 I know, right? Like,

Brian Wiggins

11:14 how am I think that sounds? Is there a? That's I want to say there's a name similar to that in one of tolkiens works like mount Keith malkia. There's maybe I don't know. It wouldn't shock me. Yeah. Wait, you mean someone reference token? I can't imagine.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

11:35 ttrpg net? We know it never happens never happens.

Brian Wiggins

11:38 Exactly. It's amazing how much comes back to that man, huh? Um, Alright, so we're through all this getting to know you stuff. I feel like that you and I are best friends now so we can get to the behind the screen stuff. Um, so when you're running a game? What are the questions you ask and the information that you need when you conduct session zero. And by session zero? I don't necessarily mean one specific session, because I know session zero can actually last for months sometimes. What is the information you need as a dungeon master? So that way you can do your job? as best as you can? Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

12:15 I mean, other than kind of the safety, mechanics and kind of everyone's yaker yums. The thing

Brian Wiggins

12:24 is younger young.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

12:26 Yeah, I kind of like the, you know, it's the the axes are, you know, what are what don't they never want to see in a campaign and then like the yums, like, do people want romance do people want like, violence in, you know, over the top action, and stuff like that, like, I think figuring out what they really, really want to see in in the campaign is is really important. And for them to be as specific as possible. I also need to know like, you know, do they like puzzles, because I ran a very tough puzzle in a campaign one time and like most of the party was like, I don't like puzzles. So that was a learning lesson. And then another one was like, I ran this very dark fivey game. And one player was like, this is just kind of oppressive. And I was like, I should have, you know, looking back, I should have that session zero been like this is gonna be a dark, oppressive game. That's kind of my intention. But knowing is half the battle. So definitely kind of getting to know the players as much as possible during those sessions zero so you can deliver exactly what they want. Yeah, I mean, you're basically the chef. So if no one wants peanuts, you make sure you're not going to put peanut butter in their stuff.

Brian Wiggins

13:50 I love that analogy. I love that analogy. Yeah, if you're not prepared if you're not mentally prepared for that, and you and then that can be very jarring. Even if it's somewhat they have no problems with if they weren't ready for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Good, good. It just kind of just do you do. So when you've run I say d&d, because that's the world I am most familiar with. for specific Forgotten Realms. I mean, I say d&d, and there's a few different realms but yeah, are you more Do you like playing within any of the systems do you like playing within the the the mythology that's already been set up or do you prefer worldbuilding

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

14:38 for me, I prefer the mythology that's that's been set up. Now this is different for like Pathfinder in five v. I'll be strange and say that for the most part, like the the five, the fantasy settings aren't normally something I'm attracted to. But for like called toward the Genesis or black void, tell us from the loop wisin in alien like those worlds I love and adore and I never touched like I think it does a lot of great things with then I might add something here and there. But for the most part, I love exploring those worlds with the players. But I think pretty much every Pathfinder or d&d game I've been in, or GM, I've made my own world.

Brian Wiggins

15:30 Okay. So when you're getting ready for a session, and I don't mean like all the pre work, you know, if you're starting a brand new campaign, there's, to varying degrees, we all have stuff that we do. But if you're getting ready for just an individual session, what is it that you do for that kind of planning? Are you one, it has meticulous notes that you've made scripting, a lot of things out, are you completely flying by the seat of your pants, somewhere in between? Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

15:59 I fly by the seat of my pants, I usually have a song or a phrase that kind of sums up the theme of every session and where I'd like to go. And that's about it. I used to plan a lot more, but it just didn't, there wasn't as much return in that planning. And so I just started winging it. And finding that a lot of my session just came out better when my mind wasn't constrained by a, by an architecture that I made prior to it.

Brian Wiggins

16:37 Yeah, cuz you know, as soon as the player it's like, no, no plan survives contact with the players.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

16:42 Exactly. You know, I I'd rather not fight with it. Let's just, let's just hop on this car and see where it goes. Now, is

Brian Wiggins

16:50 that a transition that you had to make from the first time you started running a game to now? Or did you kind of, or is that like a real? Was that relatively quick for you? Or did you have to like, be grudgingly let go of all of the writing and planning? And,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

17:04 yeah, it was a pretty quick process. I think. Every time when I went off script, I found it more reward rewarding. And so I just stopped planning as much than that I just don't plan it all. Because every every experiment outside my architecture just became an a thrilling, engaging adventure in like the the weeds in the gardens side of it. So yeah, never going back.

Brian Wiggins

17:35 You can't make me. I know exactly. When you're running a game, do you prefer to be more tactical? Or do you prefer theater of the mind, I think I have an idea of where you're gonna land on this. But on that sliding scale, one end is going to be like almost straight Wargaming the other end is almost complete, or is without any miniatures. Without any kind of physical reference, where do you fall on a scale

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

18:02 of I am completely Thea the mind. I did play with minis and such like that, and I enjoy it. But I'd like to speed that theater of the mind brings to the table. And so I really appreciate that, because I often feel like combat can just be like a pause in a TT in a role playing experience. And so being able to speed that up or keep it within the realm of fantasy within our minds. I usually enjoy that infinitely more than than minis.

Brian Wiggins

18:40 I kind of figured that was where you're gonna land when you mentioned that you got into LARPing very quickly.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

18:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, if I if, if I can't do theater mind, if I can hit you with something I will also take.

Brian Wiggins

18:55 There is that part, right? Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

18:57 I really enjoy that being like, well, I'm going to hit you. So I'm gonna hit you with this buffer. So

Brian Wiggins

19:04 I read a book. And it was called of Dyson men. And it was about a guy who he basically wrote he was writing kind of like a history of TSR and watse, and d&d and all that. And he had mentioned how he went to go check out because he has any we approach it from like a reporter standpoint, because he played, but he also wanted to treat it like a like he was reporting. And he mentioned how he's like, Well, I have to try LARPing and when he first swung started to do it, he was like, um, he was really nervous because there's a certain idea I think people have with LARPing and then he was like, now this is like the coolest thing and you mentioned being able to hit people with you know, pool noodles and things like that.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

19:51 Yeah, like it's a it's a liberating experience. And I got into it after watching a horror movie on Lark wood called Wild Hunt. And so I was like, This is amazing. And that's when I started my large journey. And since then it's been like boffer larvae and parlour LARP, and all sorts of different larps. Now, of course, you know, the last couple years I haven't been able to do so between a little one and pandemic, but

Brian Wiggins

20:18 he says excuses. No. Oh, I had a kid and oh, there's a global pandemic on the two.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

20:27 I'm a casual larper What can I say? Everyone else if you're really into it, yeah, exactly. I will get back into that saddle. It may be bringing my kid to

Brian Wiggins

20:39 a band. I was gonna say right kids got a little baby armor. So is there any crossover with what you do? And what is it this society for creative anachronism? I think it's the RCA stuff.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

20:56 Um, no, I've actually never done SCA. The biggest larps I've been a part of where the mind's eye society, like World of Darkness one. And then dystopia rising. And after that everything has pretty much been like local boffer lives for the most part.

Brian Wiggins

21:18 I in college, I ran vampire game. We were playing. We were in the middle of playing d&d. And it was at that time, it would have been three 3.5. So the dark years and my friend who was running the game, he was dming. Our game. He had the source book for vampire I think it was like second edition and I started paging through it. I was like, you know, angsty college me was like, This is the greatest thing ever. So I started running a vampire game. But I got to say that the, the LARPing element of it scared me and not because like I think I was worried about the people I was gonna run into there because I had a friend who really liked going to goth clubs. And I'm like, I'm gonna run into those people.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

22:05 Like, that's, I mean, LARP is where vampire live is where I met my wife. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And she is a much bigger nerd than I'll ever be. Which is amazing. So

Brian Wiggins

22:18 that's, that's excellent. Yeah, it was one of those things I just couldn't and I, for whatever reason, and I just because I think it was like, Oh, I think was more like, I'm gonna meet me there. I don't want to meet me there because I'm a douchebag. And I knew what I was. It's, yeah, I wear sunglasses at night. You know, it's

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

22:40 it's, you're gonna find weirdos there. It's gonna be great. I went to a vampire larva kink club, man. Yes, I think Yeah, the chains were still like on the wall. And they were like, axes or crosses. You can like strap yourself into cool music. It made you feel like you were in that like club and the Vampire The bloodlines. video game? That's right. Yeah, I was like, This is amazing. This is also very intimidating.

Brian Wiggins

23:13 I for a lot of reasons. Yes. I yeah, that's I will never kink shame. But I would say that I need to work up to that. Yeah.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

23:25 I need an amoretti of sour and like five beers. To get in that mindset. Well,

Brian Wiggins

23:30 what was it? I want a vampire? I want a cranberry vodka please. You mentioned dystopia rising? What is that? Because that just the name just immediately grabbed my attention. What is dystopia rising?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

23:45 Yeah, dystopia rising is a post apocalyptic LARP where there are zombies and such. And so yeah, it's kind of like a resource scarcity. LARP with like, people wearing old tires as armor or road signs. And it I had so much fun with that primarily, because at night, when zombies would attack, it would create scenarios where you had to like, choose who he really cared about. I remember the hospital was being overwhelmed. And we thought that that was a safe place to be. And as I was escaping the hospital, I saw a companion who had who was hurt and so thus couldn't, couldn't really run. And there was there was too much light around the hospital for them to be able to get out by themselves. And they were they were calling my name, like, please help me. Oh, and I looked at him. Oh, no. I mean, I, I felt a touch of sympathy as my character and I went over to try to help them. But then I saw a zombie kind of like shuffling forward towards him and I was like, I'm Sorry, but I can't. I can't, man. So I, I went over there and I looted him and she says, Wow, it's close. Yeah. I love that dystopia rising. So I ran into the florist as he was being eaten alive by a zombie.

Brian Wiggins

25:22 Oh my god. so in this situation now, I mean, this, the setting I love already. I mean, as much as zombies have been done. I love dystopia settings. I love post apocalyptic, post apocalyptic settings. And there is something that when you throw zombies into the mix, it definitely makes for a fun, classical, you know, mix. So when when you're doing that, are you doing this? I mean, this is LARPing. So it's not at a table. This is at a location of some kind, right?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

25:54 Yeah. Yeah, we usually go to the woods. So we pretty much have like a camping ground to ourselves. So we have buildings and like rec rooms and stuff, and they usually do decoration. Oh, cool. Feels like it.

Brian Wiggins

26:10 Yeah. Oh, let's go get you're not camping. Like oh, we're all that intense in this area. roped off. No, this is like where you have like, okay,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

26:17 yeah, like wooden cabins and stuff. Oh, that is

Brian Wiggins

26:19 so cool. And that is perfect for that kind of for that kind of game.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

26:25 And they will attack you while you're sleeping. Unless you like put up traps and such, which happened one time. They burst through the door and I think there was about like 12 of us. And you know, I don't sleep well, those nights in and so I was halfway to the ground before I was awake. And I crawled underneath the bunk beds to slip out when I was still like in my underwear. I'm not gonna die not not here.

Brian Wiggins

26:57 Not like this. Yeah, we please tell me that Nerf guns are involved in this and some.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

27:04 No not not for this one. I do know some large set us Nerf guns. The night? Yeah, I think guns were so rare in this one that Ah, yeah, so that was just not something that anyone would have make sense. Yeah, but I do believe there were like bow and arrows. And I have played in some larps where a Nerf gun was used? Which I really appreciated.

Brian Wiggins

27:31 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cuz you definitely will have ammo scarcity, because you're not going to go pick up those darts. Yeah, exactly.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

27:38 Like, that's the whole thing.

Brian Wiggins

27:42 Um, so in this if you're in if you're the one. So let me ask you this, have you? Because again, I'm not terribly familiar with LARPing. Yeah, I'm assuming that there is someone or some people who are acting in some capacity as a game master Dungeon Master referee. actuation? Have you been on that part of it for LARP? Or are you mostly just on the player side for that?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

28:08 No, I've, there's been some larps that I went to primarily as a ref, or as a NPC. Usually not ref so much just because I've never kind of been on that side of it. But I have played like a lot of different NPCs. And we would pretty much just be in our own cabin, all of the like volunteers for the weekend. And the storytellers would have like these scenes that they would describe to us and give us information on and we would get dressed up and they would go play out those scenes with the players for the Lord. And I was like, God one time one time I was like, someone's insecurities and other I really love just playing like, like MOOCs, you know, just easily killed and easily like scared.

Brian Wiggins

29:03 So you'd like playing the red shirt? The victim of the Yeah, exactly.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

29:07 Okay. You I think my favorite part is just like working your hardest to make the player feel so cool, you know, as they're like fighting you and getting you on the edge and stuff. And it's just like, I love the shines of their faces when they're like, Yeah, I just keep the crap out of that guy.

Brian Wiggins

29:29 You know, for every great babyface, you have to have a really good heel. Yeah. I mean, I mean, think about that, right? I mean it. It you got to put the other one over and that's it. Yeah, that's so well. So from that point of view, either as a larper doing an NPC or being a referee, or even at the table itself. If we were able to duct tape you to a chair long enough to play In any of those situations, when you're the one in some capacity that's in charge, is the responsible adult in the room. Yeah, right. Um, how, what is it? What is your approach when one of one or several of your players do something completely unexpected? And I know you said you like flying by the seat of your pants, but I'm talking about when they choose that one option that you could not have dreamed about if you had a million monkeys typing in a million typewriters for a million years. And they came up with the one thing that was like, What the hell? And it really can throw a game into chaos? How do you deal with that? Because every dm has run into this. Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

30:41 yeah. And I like the last time I was doing that I was running a lexical item. game. And I had like this amazing campaign idea involving France. And that is right before the French Revolution. And like, cold, a cold was alive and everything. And I was really hoping my players would join up with the revolution and such. And when the choice came to them, they were just like, man, yeah, we're gonna do our own thing. You know, the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. That's their own thing. We're gonna, we're gonna be over here. And so I just had like this face like, they they caught on that I was not anticipating that like that answer. And I think I mean, afterwards, like the the pandemic hit, so we weren't able to kind of continue. But it took, I mean, that session, I feel felt like ended early because of that shift. We had been playing for about like, two hours. And I like, I think we chatted afterwards. I was like, Yeah, I have to, I have to think about where we're going to go now. And I think that's one of the like, for any tips for for GM, or whatever, just, it's okay to just be like, I don't know, let me let me think about this for a little bit. And so then in our next sessions, I just went full horror, because I'll say, you know, if we're not going to do a political angle, this is a pretty dark game. Let's explore the code as you guys have been doing and see where it takes us. And they did, and they had a lot of fun. So it's just like, when something goes completely in a different direction, and my monkeys are like, yeah, I take a view. And I'm like, let me try to figure this out.

Brian Wiggins

32:46 Now, you just said something and got my brain turning, and you would have a unique position on this. Is there a storytelling intersection? a Venn diagram, if you will, where the overlap is of that, like, horror, whatever genre of horror, you really want to go. I always like, elder horror, I always think that's a really fun way to go. But if you have that, is there an intersection of that? and political drama? Is there a way to combine the West Wing with Yeah, man, it's a really bad example, because the West Wing definitely went out of it. But you know, I'm saying like, you know, House of Cards and Cthulhu or some other Yeah.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

33:35 Yeah, one of my one of my favorite scenarios, in I've read it, and I've yet to run it I really want to is red rockets glare, which is a cult scenario by Jacqueline Breck, I believe is her name. And it is about being interns during the the Trump election. Oh, God. Yeah. And it is dark and horrific. And of course, there's politics involved in it. So if you want to play a micro attempt at that, I think that would be a good dark one to throw yourself in. Another one of my favorite ones would probably be black void, because there's a lot of black void is kind of about the survival of humanity when they've been thrown out into the stars around it. So politics has a lot to deal with how you relate to these like eletric beings and how you relate and inspire your fellow humans. So I mean, I know that you think that you're talking about it, like I would think I would love to hop in to more of an in depth campaign like that.

Brian Wiggins

34:49 Where you have, yeah, where you have the political intrigue, but you also have this other element. Yeah, I don't know, man. That's all Yeah, I always i, this I understand Everyone has their own flavors that they like. But I like it when politics not necessarily politics is done. Like we know pop culture politics. But when you allow for that reality within the world, and I think, by favorite example at the moment, is the expanse book series? Ooh, because they've got some really have you have you read those

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

35:28 I have not read, I've seen the movies or the TV shows,

Brian Wiggins

35:32 the show is excellent. And they obviously, whenever there's an adaptation from book to another medium, you're going to have to make changes, I completely understand that. And Thomas Jane is brilliant. In the first two seasons. Yeah, I can watch his scenes all day long. But the books get very much into the socio economic drivers behind everything and how the politics are playing out. And it's done in a very realistic way, despite the fact that set however many hundreds of years into the future. But they get very much and because you start picking up the well. This is why the belters are, where they are and why they are the way that they are and how the language in they get more, you know, they don't get into the explanation of the language, but you start seeing the socio economic and cultural and political boundaries that are driving most of the problems. You know, and then you add in the pro demotic proto molecule, which is kind of like that whole thing. Yeah. And honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, kinda that is kind of that intersection if, I mean, they haven't played a horror angle with it, but it's there. But yeah, I mean,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

36:41 the the first season of it was pretty, it was pretty dark, and I really loved it.

Brian Wiggins

36:49 I wish they had pushed it a little bit further, because in the books, there's a part where the part were holding. And Thomas Jane's character, Joe. Why am I forgetting his name, but when they were on Sirius station, not series, when they were on, I forget the station that got overrun by the proto molecule. In the book, it is full on Dawn of the Dead 28 days later, zombie apocalypse. That's awesome. Where they are trying to escape as best they can in the entire station is getting overrun and the evil corporation or whoever is attempting to actually get everyone in there infected with the proto molecule just to see what would happen. So you have you have a lot of things going on there. And it's done in such a cool way. That it's not old. Yeah. And

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

37:47 like, I feel like they definitely had a lot to play with. Yeah, so it's, it's really cool to, to see them. Play with it a little bit, but I wish they do more. Because I love space, or Yeah, like event horizon.

Brian Wiggins

38:02 I had to stop playing dead space. Like very quickly, I had to stop playing it very early on in the game. Because that game was terrifying.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

38:09 is horrible. Like, holy heck.

Brian Wiggins

38:14 And then you I've been seeing some playthroughs of the I forget it. They did a game for the within the Alien franchise.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

38:22 Yeah, Alien Isolation. Yes. And,

Brian Wiggins

38:26 and the big driving thing there is the alien doesn't show up in the same place. The alien has its own AI that it's running. And you could run the game once, and the alien might show up. And you could run it again. And the alien you won't see the alien again. Because the alien is always moving on its own doing its own thing reacting to the world. And that's it's

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

38:48 really good AI work for them. And like, Oh, it's really cool to just see that because they did a really great job.

Brian Wiggins

38:56 Yeah. Well, I'm going to steer us back to the main road here, because we got into some fun areas here. Yeah, we could we could spend a whole that and I will say I am. I am not a fan of har and I do not go and seek it out. Because I'm scared of it.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

39:17 It's a good place to be.

Brian Wiggins

39:18 Yeah. And I I mean, I like a little bit of fear. But for like, for whatever reason. It's like I it's not because it's a bad genre. It just means like, I don't want to be scared. I think I was traumatized as a kid. You know what it was? I think I was like in sixth or seventh grade and I saw the opening to I think the movie is hellgate, and I was just like, I shouldn't have seen that as a kid that I shouldn't have seen the thriller video as a kid that was but I do like it as a genre because it is when it's done well. Yeah, it is me It's so artful.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

39:53 Yeah, it's one of those genres that Yeah, you gotta you gotta be very careful with because it can. It can be hard Or it could be greatly damaging. So you just have to like, watch things very carefully.

Brian Wiggins

40:07 Yeah. Yeah, it takes. It takes us special talent to do it and do it. Well, where you don't cross the line into being Yeah, like you said, damaging. But you also take it far enough that it's not okay. You know, it's not, you know, cheesy, it's not gonna end up on an episode of misty 3k. Yeah. So in the course of your storytelling career, and again, I'm going to let it be because you're the first dm that I've had on the podcast. who's done LARPing. Actually no Calliope might have I don't remember if she mentioned or not because she does improv. So I wouldn't be surprised if she got into that. But she also Yeah, but so I'm gonna say in whatever capacity what is a secret that your players never uncovered, but you really wish that they did? Or? Or I'll say on the other side, if that doesn't exist, tell me about a time when you really had to, like, do something that the players never knew you did. But it was to help to keep the game on the rails one or the other. It's okay. I'm just always curious.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

41:15 Yeah, it was it was actually my my wife, I was playing a I was running a legend of the five rings game. It was a horror game. And my wife hates horror. And there was it was at the start, where they were in like this shadowy area, surrounded by weeds, and they hear screaming in the distance. And she went to go scout it out. You know, I kept telling her screams are getting louder and more haunting. And she just turned around and went back to our group and said, like, yeah, nothing there. Let's just move forward. So yeah, I wanted the whole campaign to start with that. And it was like one of those things that was like, I mean, obviously, we continue playing, but I was just like, Okay, well, there goes that thread of a love story line. But yeah, you know, maybe we'll get to explore in the future, but we never did. Like, who that person was why they were there to begin with. We never got to explore it. So I teaser like,

Brian Wiggins

42:25 you'll never know.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

42:26 Yeah, like, you'll never know. And I'll never know either, because all I had was like a sentence on it. And then like, I was waiting for everyone else to explore it so that I can explore it too, because I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Right? I don't get to explore it either.

Brian Wiggins

42:44 So you really so so. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. So you really had nothing more than just the Vegas sketch outline of their someone screaming and I know there's one thing about them, and you were going to kind of see Yeah, that's really that's brave man. Yeah,

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

43:02 I mean, that's how I normally run games is I just have like a sentence or two. And then I just kind of improv with the other people at the table. And that's just kind of, it's been very rewarding to do it like that.

Brian Wiggins

43:18 So the question I have is, and I just got done saying that I'm me personally, I'm not a fan of the horror genre as a whole, because I don't like being that scared. But I do like the I've been able to build tension. And that's obviously a major part of the horror genre. And I knew that that's a weak point for me. How do you do that without having all of those details? How and how do you how do you approach that in order to get it so people, so you can build that tension? And you have some idea of you know, a little bit where it's going to continue to build that tension, but also know when to finally cut that thread and play that line that we were just talking about? of not too much, but pushing it enough?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

44:08 Yeah, I think following the cues on some of the recent horror TV shows has helped a lot. I think one that strikes out in my head other than like, the haunting right, was us. We different from them, which was a movie us was a TV series. And it was horror, horror movies. The really good ones have a way of capturing viewpoints and perspectives for the viewer. That kind of slows down time and slows down the action and the things that are happening around them focusing on certain aspects that don't seem important. But when when you as a creator can talk about a vase within a room in such intricate detail as your your character steps in, you kind of slow motion the whole scene. And in that respect you you kind of make the players take their time and, and breathe and really take in the environment of this location. And then because you've kind of like described this thing in detail, they're wondering, is this important? What are the things in this room could be important or are important? And then, of course, providing and describing things from a very alien light perspective, especially if you're doing Eldrick core, does a really good job. So kind of eliminating the, I guess the societal norms, they would normally describe something? As, and just going at it from the perspective of someone who's never seen this before? Like, how would you describe an elephant? If you've never seen it on TV? Yeah. Or you've never read about one

Brian Wiggins

46:19 that's always the challenge, right? When you're trying to describe something that no one has ever seen before? You know, when, whenever they've I would hate to, I'm loath to mention his name based on what we know about him. But when he mentioned a non Euclidean geometry, yeah, you know, it's like, What the f I mean, it was enough of a description where you're like, Alright, I kind of get it that you know, I always think like Escher or something. But it's like, what does that mean? It can drive you mad just looking at it.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

46:53 Yeah, and that's like such a an amazing point to bring to your players. It's like, what what is this and why is it important? And just slowing the game down being okay with silence and, and stillness and just watching your players as they try to feel and learn from the this location.

Brian Wiggins

47:15 So random. Tangent right now. What are your top five more horror movies?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

47:24 Oh, yeah, it is. I saw the devil the thing the void. I mean, us is an amazing horror TV series. Train to Busan. Wild Hunt. Hell house LLC. Yeah, I think those are some of my favorites.

Brian Wiggins

47:47 Man. You had them ready?

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

47:48 Yeah. It's, it's definitely one of those ones around like, Yeah, I love horror. So it's always on my mind.

Brian Wiggins

48:01 So yeah, yeah. You know what, why don't we do this? Why don't we make this part one? And then let's get back on the schedule. And let's do a part two, because I think there's more to dive into. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. That'd be amazing. Well, thank you very much for coming on to part one of our podcast here and, and have fun and we're going to continue this man.

Mitchell (Penny For A Tale)

48:22 Yeah, I'm having a lot of fun. So I'm very excited. Alright, we'll get it set up. All right, Brian,

Brian Wiggins

48:29 good to meet you too. Well, that's it for this episode of hidden roles. Remember, players if you were in my game, or in Mitchell's game, and you listened to this podcast, your characters just might get niihama. Yeah, that's the thing. We're the dungeon masters. We can make it a thing. Please make sure to give us a big old five star review on whatever platform you happen to be consuming this podcast on. Please follow the hidden roles podcast on twitter at hidden underscore roles. And you can always give me

Brian Wiggins

a follow up at the same Brian on Twitter and Instagram. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai