Episode 102: Running D&D For Kids: An evening with Maryann Cullinan (Culliope)

Brian Wiggins  0:02  
This is the hidden roles podcast by dungeon masters for dungeon Master's. We are going to give you a peek on our side of the table. So you can see inside our notebooks and what we've been doing on our side of the screen. Now let me roll my 20 Okay, check my table. And my guest this week is.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  0:30  
I'm Maryanne Kalinin. I'm a middle school teacher in New Hampshire and I'm the cat herder for heroes Hall after school, d&d. Slay queens, and air d&d is our home game.

Brian Wiggins  0:42  
Now, fair warning. If you are a player in any of my games, or in mariane games, and you listen to this nice characters, you've got their shame of something happened to them. We're off to a good start already. We're gonna have fun, I can tell. So my guest this week is Marianne Kalinin, otherwise known as Calliope. Marianne, thank you very, very much for being on the podcast.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:15  
Hello, thanks for having me.

Brian Wiggins  1:18  
Um, so we kind of hit on it a little bit, then your name and the name of the game and everything. Let's start with this first, how what was the first tabletop role playing game that you ever played? How did you get involved in this crazy mixed up world of d&d and ttrpg.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:36  
So I'm actually a relative newbie. The first game I played was probably mouthguard a few years ago. But I am a child of the 90s. And in the 1990s, in rural New Hampshire girls didn't play d&d, they weren't invited to the table by the boys. And so I've actually just started doing this in the past probably five years. And I'd say that I was doing a lot of simulations and things that really are TT RPGs in my classroom, but I wouldn't have known to call it that. So while a bit sort of folded together for me, but my first ttrpg is mouthguard. That's my first love. And then I've played a lot of d&d as well.

Brian Wiggins  2:23  
Very cool. So describe to me a little bit I mean, I know I've heard of it, I don't have much exposure to it. In my head, I have an idea of what it is. But what is mascot is a game.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  2:34  
So mouthguard is uses the burning wheel system. And it's from the graphic novels, the mouthguard graphic novels by David Peterson. And if you ever liked red wall, or any of those sort of like warrior mouse kind of things, it's that it's actually the graphic novels are pretty intense. They're pretty dark, and they're wonderful and beautiful. And then the game allows you to play the part of the palace guards who are doing things like kind of typical Ranger things. And they're also sort of fighters and they deliver the mail. So you can use the setting that, of course was created in the graphic novels, or you can make it your own.

Brian Wiggins  3:21  
So is it a case of where it's mice and they're living in like a human world? And they're just doing the mouse things in the human world? Or is it just that there's that kind of is a kind of like, humans aren't even a thing? It's just

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  3:33  
right. It's anthropomorphic mice living in their own mouth society. Okay. So I've got little swords and capes and things. Okay,

Brian Wiggins  3:41  
so it's not like American tale or rats of nim. It's

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  3:45  
no, right. Okay, okay.

Brian Wiggins  3:49  
It sounds fun and adorable all

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  3:51  
the time it is. And we got it actually to play with our kids. Oh, and so I really started playing role playing games, officially with my kids, and sort of came from there. But I would also be remiss if I did not mention, they came from beneath the sea, which is an indie, RPG, that is hilarious. And you play the part of actors in a B movie, such as they came from beneath the sea, and it's ridiculous and full of action. And if you do certain moves, you can take control over the scene and really change it up. So if you like, sort of be horror slash sci fi fantasy kind of films of the 50s and 60s and being hilarious, then I would also recommend that Oh,

Brian Wiggins  4:42  
that sounds very interesting. I might have to check that out. It's amazing how many systems are out there and how many ways are able to take this basic thing and just turn it completely on its ear in different ways?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  4:54  
Yeah, and one of the things so I'm actually a PhD student also and that Something that I've been thinking a lot about with some of my friends and colleagues this summer is trying out lots of different kinds of games and trying to figure out well, what are the things that are required to make a good game? What are the options? What can be sort of lifted for a classroom setting? Yeah. And it's really neat to see the different ways that people have, you know, dealt with those things.

Brian Wiggins  5:27  
So the different different ways of solving that problem, essentially, yeah, exactly.

Brian Wiggins  5:31  
Yeah. There's all different iterations. Right, but Yep. I think we're I mean, we're all storytellers, really, at our core, I mean, as humans, so it's kinda like this is sort of just yeah, just have Yeah, that's Yeah. Man, that's sorry, you can actually do like your PhD work in that are you doing? Okay.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  5:51  
I'm getting a PhD from Lesley University, which is in Boston. And it's an education. And the questions that I'm asking are, how I noticed that role playing games in an educational setting help children, middle schoolers, with social, emotional, and leadership skills. And they get to try out lots of things. But it also, I've done a lot of homebrew RPGs in my classroom, and notice that it also impacts their connection with content, and the stickiness of their learning. So I'm trying to investigate what it is about role playing games that does that, and how I can effectively do that in the class.

Brian Wiggins  6:30  
Oh, that's very cool that one of the guys I was interviewing last week is actually from the Netherlands. And he runs a program for d&d for kids. And I think it's about the same age bracket that he's hitting. And he's using it as a way of getting them to read more wave, math and all that stuff. Because it's all there in d&d, and in Yeah, role playing games. It just it's, you know, got the candy shell on it.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  6:59  
Well, middle schoolers, I think everyone, but middle schoolers in particular, they are really interested in fantasy still, you know, they're trying, they are role playing constantly. They are trying to figure out their role in the world. They're starting to realize that their parents are fallible, they are interested in who am I in this place? And what are the things that I'm allowed to do and feel comfortable doing? And so role playing allows them to do a lot of those things in a setting that's a lot lowered risk.

Brian Wiggins  7:30  
Yeah. Yeah, my remember Middle School is kind of like how it was. It's a difficult time to go through it. So that's

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  7:38  
definitely developmentally challenging. Yeah, I think it has to be held. But now. But it's developed. I mean, you're trying out all these things. You're trying out romance, you're trying out friendships, you're trying out, trying to push away from your family, and be responsible, and your body's changing, but you're not really good at any of those things yet, because you haven't had any experience. Yeah,

Brian Wiggins  8:02  
so yeah, yeah. I'm gonna put those memories out of my head. Um,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  8:09  
awesome. Time. It is so fun to be around those kids. They change constantly. Yeah, brilliant and hilarious and do all sorts of amazing things. Yes.

Brian Wiggins  8:18  
Yes. Go middle schooler. So how did you end up Did you so when you got mouse card did is that a game that requires a Game Master, a dungeon master of some kind? Or So did you did you start in that role? Or did you eventually transition into running games?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  8:36  
So I will say I got it at PAX East a few years ago. And again, many years ago now I guess. And we had it put up on the shelf for a while because our kids were too little. But then I went down to PAX unplugged, and I saw a panel called hand her a sword, which was about d&d with middle school girls. That's like, I can do that. Oh, girl. I didn't know what the end is. That'd be alright. So that I just went home. But I started asking kids if they would play d&d, and they were like, Sure, I don't know how to play. I'm like, Well, me there really, but let's figure it out. And so so I pretty much always been behind the screen first. And as I built capacity in my students, and in our friendship group, I was able to move out and be a DM sometimes and sometimes be a player, which is nice, too, because we started around the same time Yeah, doing a d&d group at home on Friday nights and I I have to put in a plug for air d&d, they are remarkably good at scheduling. We have merican systems at VA together, which I know is not always the case. But the most heroic thing of all is consistency. But every basically everybody was like, Oh, I always wanted to play d&d, but and then they had whatever reason they did it. Yeah. And so we're like, well, let's all learn How to play together and a few people had played, you know, Second Edition or some years ago. So,

Brian Wiggins  10:05  
now I feel old thanks.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  10:08  
Which, you know, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, it was hard to play. Second Edition I understand because it was all written in cuneiform on stone tablets.

Brian Wiggins  10:20  
It was. It was actually like proto cuneiform. So, yeah, well, the big thing was that you had to know some really eldritch rituals to understand how to discover that go.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  10:32  
Yeah, I was gonna say, with the discovery of tobacco

Brian Wiggins  10:36  
that they say fire was like what really don't got the dawn of civilization know that they agree in theory, please. That go? Yeah, that was its own. Yeah. Yeah, I started with Redbox. So that was a dark time, the dark times, not as dark as as as third edition. It was.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  10:55  
I really, I've come into d&d in fifth edition. I didn't actually play all those other ones, I have to say, and this is, I know, a little sacrilegious. But I don't actually like d&d that much anymore. That's fine. It doesn't super interest me because of the crunchiness of it. And the high barrier to entry. And also like, the racism. Well, there's,

Brian Wiggins  11:15  
there's definitely some Yeah, and that's something where it's like, there's definitely some issues that have definitely been brought to light. Right, with just some of the fundamentals of the game. And, you know, it's one of those things, it's designed to be kind of all things to all people. It's a gateway RPG.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  11:36  
And, you know, right, some of that is baked into the assumptions that were in the creation of it. Yeah. All the way from Lord of the Rings and Things like that. And also, I just find the combat really tedious. But yeah, I can understand that. Yeah. But I'm also I learned I wasn't adventurers league material when I did a one shot at a different packs. And we were like fighting. Well, we were across some sort of very big, open space, and someone who is talking got assassinated, and we had to go over there and see why that had happened. And that we spent like 45 minutes walking across the very big Plaza. You could only walk 30 feet at a time. So I was like, Okay, I love that. Like ever the people who love that. I love that for them. Yeah, wonderful, you know, but for me, I'm like, No, thank you.

Brian Wiggins  12:33  
No, that's complete. Listen, it's the big thing is that whatever, it doesn't matter which system you're in, right, it matters. Are you having fun playing it? And if absolutely the fifth edition d&d is not for you, for whatever reason, that's fine. Maybe some people some people love fourth edition, some people love I don't know, many of them. Actually. I don't know anyone but someone I'm sure other loves version 3.5. And, you know, but it could be like people love some of the White Wolf systems, or they love mouse guard, you know, and it's just you got to find what,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  13:08  
what works for you. And there's enough room for everybody

Brian Wiggins  13:12  
there is and those good ways in New Hampshire, in the 90s. Ever like we don't like girls like stupid stupid boys.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  13:18  
Yeah, yeah. Because the real treasure was the friends we made.

Brian Wiggins  13:24  
So just real quick, what would you unplugged were you at? Or have you come to more of them?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  13:28  
Um, I've been to two or three of them in Philadelphia. Yeah.

Brian Wiggins  13:35  
I've been to all of them. I live here in Philly. So I've been I was so excited when they decided to do that. Like I I tweeted a Jerry as like, Is this real? He tweeted back. Yes, it's real.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  13:48  
So here's my Jerry story, which is at PAX East years ago. So I we my I love red wall, which I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's basically anthropomorphic mice. Okay. And so I picked up mouthguard and I was like, this looks like red wall. This looks like anthropomorphic mice. And I'm talking and this guy comes through the quarter. He's like, Oh, that's a great game. And I'm like, is it it's like, yeah, it's really good for kids. Do you have kids? Like, yeah, I do have kids. He's like, I play with my kids. I'm like, Oh, yeah. And I'm like, What a nice salesman. My husband's job is like on the because it's scary. Like I totally I had seen him earlier. Yeah, I didn't recognize him. I just knew he looked familiar.

Brian Wiggins  14:34  
Jerry is one of the so at unplugged some friends of mine and I we run the the drawn and courtier after party. And which is based it's we named it after the tavern that Jerry's streamed game was based out of and you know, Jerry would always come out to it and he is just a nicest dude. He is just

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  14:57  
he's just a very nice dude when I met him Didn't know it. Yeah, he's

Brian Wiggins  15:01  
Yeah, well here he is zero ego. Like he doesn't expect people to recognize him. If you do it, he still has that reaction of why do people know who I am? Dude, it's so of all the systems that you play. Do you have a favorite monster?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  15:22  
Ah, well, I have several favorite monsters. my very favorite monster is probably the wolf in sheep's clothing, which is the one where the monster is a like a stump, and then kill small animals and make some dance around to make up like, wow, these are tiny animals. You're like, oh, they're so cute. And then you get close and it eats you. That was a really big hit with children. And roving modelers, of course, yes. Because rover ballers, if you're not familiar, they have, like, I'm not really sure about the mechanics, like the physical beginnings of a robot baller, but it has like a lions face. And then it has five legs. And a head kind of stays still like a gyroscope and the five legs roll around. Yeah. Very good. Oh, good. And then our sort of family. Monster, I think is the Boulder. We love boulders. The classic. Yeah, we my children. My little daughter especially draws a lot of boulders outside of our house. So on the chalk with chalk on the sidewalks.

Brian Wiggins  16:37  
People are walking by what is going on in that? Yeah.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  16:45  
So I like ladders that are a little ridiculous.

Brian Wiggins  16:48  
Yeah. Yeah, I can. Yeah. There's the ones Yeah, you have always have your categories, right? You have the ones that are kind of like, truly terrifying, which are like, wow, yeah. But then you have the ones that are just complete goof where you can just have so much fun playing it. Right? Because we get the webmasters

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  17:08  
You know, I'm not interested in stories where like, you know, the the first one in d&d in the starter set is the last minute, right. And I'm not interested in a story like that, where you go, like, into a cave and murder everyone in the cave. Yeah. People who speak a language and have families. Yeah, right. Like, that's feels icky to me, and especially when I'm working with middle schoolers, like, yeah, the monsters. They're just like, living their best lives most of the time, right? Yeah. So I'm interested in stories where there's a twist or there's a sort of ethical dilemma, or where the monsters or other people in the society really yeah, or they're just straight up like a big spider.

Brian Wiggins  18:02  
Cuz, you know, giant, giant wasps, yes, kill them.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  18:08  
Right? Or, like, in the, in a story that I did that I've done at school and at home, but I originally wrote for at home, the party had to cross. It was sort of like in the Lion King where there's like all the wildebeest or whatever going through, and then like, you know, symbols, dad, like Paul gets trampled. It's kind of like that. But with roving ballers, and they had to cross the cross. And when they get to the sort of middle, there's a big beehive, and you had to be very, very quiet, or that they were bees that the more you talk to the lads, you know, they would sting you. Yeah. And, you know, stuff like that is more interesting to me than like, We're going into a dungeon and murdering the bandits. Because, yeah, you know, yeah, I

Brian Wiggins  19:01  
can definitely, especially with kids, I can see because it's like, oh, one. I mean, I guess as adults, it's easier for us to just sort of detach from that and just be like, yep, they're bad guys. Often, but you know, a kids. Maybe just understanding the gray area, I guess, more or just,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  19:23  
yeah, I mean, that's something that I'm really interested in actually, is that gray area, and I would actually push back on it. And I would say that kids are very aware of the gray area, often, much more than the adults are very much like, I shouldn't like why am I killing this person? I mean, you get your murder hobos and stuff too, but for the most part, you know, they're very interested in that and I think that those are the stories that I'm interested in telling are the ones that are like, you know, there's a great little one shot I think it's called deaths in the cornfields or something like that. And I got it from, you know, like drive thru RPG. And you walk, you're in this cornfield and you find a scarecrow, but it's really a person. And they're like, Oh, my family is going crazy. They're like cultists, they, you know, have hung me out here to die, whatever, until you go. And basically big long story short, that person is turning into a vampire, but they don't know it. Oh, and I mean, that's like spoiler alert. Yeah. But that makes a very long story very short, but then it's like, Okay, well, who's the bad guy here? Right. And that's interest. Those are the kinds of stories that I think are interesting to me, because it's not. There's no one right answer. Yeah. But you have to figure out what you as players and as characters would do, which is interesting.

Brian Wiggins  20:50  
Yeah. When there's more than one way to approach and solve the problem when you can defeat it, where if you want to go stick the pointy end of your sword and things, that's fine. But if you want to talk and see if there's any negotiate if there's diplomacy as an option, or Yeah, creative problem solving, that's definitely those even if you end up coming to the point where Yep, stab it to death. The options still allow it to be a more interesting story, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So they know it's funny, my wife got me. There's a book I'm forgetting. It's called a appendix z, Appendix, wood, Appendix x, something like that. It was basically, the person had gone through and written reviews of all of the books that are listed as the source material in d&d. And he was going through and going because it was all the old pulp books and all that. And at one point, he's like, I'm tired of anti heroes, why can't I brag? I was like, Oh, that's the problem. You just want the simple, you know, girl, pretty man stick point in, you know, kill things. And you know, but it's like, right? Yes, God forbid anyone in some complexity with their heroes and villains.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  22:02  
I would like to put in a little plug for the monsters know what they're doing, which is a little book by sly flourish. And it's really awesome. Because it's really that same idea of when you meet the giant spider in the dungeon. What is the motivation of the giant spider to try to eat you? Is it hungry? Is it protecting eggs? Is it a parade? Right? And that makes the whole encounter that much more interesting? Because the monsters know what they're doing. They have their own little backstory lives, when you're not there. Yeah. And so having encounters that aren't just people standing around waiting for you to murder them, I think is really interesting. And I mean, don't get me wrong, is the sort of heroism and like, I don't want it to be once upon a time, some heroes did nothing the end like that. Like that, like, you know, my afternoon on Tuesday,

Brian Wiggins  23:05  
that's real life, real life.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  23:07  
That's like he nobody wants that even reality based television isn't like that. So

Brian Wiggins  23:11  
it was Alfred Hitchcock's entire point is like, I don't want to do a slice of life, because you can get a slice of real life right outside the theater.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  23:17  
Exactly. So, so don't get me wrong, but I just think I'm interested. I think that it's more interesting storytelling for me personally, when there are those kinds of questions. Yeah. about, you know, what's the right answer? Because? Because that's, that's sort of the dilemma of storytelling.

Brian Wiggins  23:41  
Yeah, absolutely. You just you gave me just two thoughts about that, where, if you look at two different Shakespeare plays, if you look at Titus Andronicus, and you look at a fellow Titus and dronicus. While I mean, you know, it's obviously clear, I'm gonna saying that in quotes, who the antagonist and protagonists are, it is very murky, because no one is really right. And that entire play, right, there's bad people in there. I mean, people that do some very, there's people who do some very horrendous, awful things were very definitely bad. But when you look at am forgetting the the Queen's name right now, but, you know, she has some motivation there. She's the hero of her own story. So she's a very compelling villain. And on the other end on a fella you have Iago, who I think is one of the best bad guys ever, and he's bad just to be bad. But that's, that's the outlier. You know?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  24:42  
He's Yeah, and I mean, we're interested in people like that, because that's how we get you know, then non 1960s Joker Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or you know, not the 1960s like, Adam West stuff, but the Yeah, you know, like Yeah, Heath Ledger ledger. Right, exactly like people are interested in the people who just want to watch the world burn. Yeah. And why? You know, and I think there's value to that too. But again it's very an even Iago like, he had the jealousy of wanting to be right. The general Right. Yeah. So then he was like a very skilled person who, like took a fellow's jealousy and got it into this rage. And so I mean, even he has like a little backstory, even though he's also just evil.

Brian Wiggins  25:40  
Yeah, no, no redeeming qualities. So there's no redeeming,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  25:43  
redeeming but boy, is

Brian Wiggins  25:44  
he fun? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But like you said, it's, it's you have to have both if every single adventure every single time, which just the bad guy is bad, because bad. Unless you're, you know, unless it's a 1980s gi joe cartoon.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  26:05  
Well, and I mean, and then, on the other hand, you know, we don't need a, like, sympathetic backstory for every single girl. Like, you know, the krewella movie was great, but I'm like, Cruella de Vil does not need a backstory.

Brian Wiggins  26:19  
No. She wanted to skin poppies. No, there's no need to know. I have I know everything I need to know.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  26:28  
Right at the end. We don't want him to be sympathetic, necessarily. But I think sometimes. I think sometimes the throw that in there is interesting, because exactly what you said everyone is the hero of their own story.

Brian Wiggins  26:41  
Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, well, that's any good, bad guy, regardless of whether you have sympathy for them or not. If you've approached them with the idea that they are the hero of their own story, they're not most unless they're complete sociopaths, which is okay, too. But unless they're complete sociopath, it's like, is that really interesting? I'm evil for the sake of being evil? No, I think I'm doing the right thing.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  27:06  
Exactly. Right.

Brian Wiggins  27:09  
Man, we could just have a whole conversation just about that. And that would just I know, we share good, but that's what this is why I love TT RPGs. Because it at its core, regardless of how you play it, it is about story. And it's just, oh, well, we got we Okay, I am going to turn this back on to the main highway here. Because otherwise, we're gonna come back. I know we're gonna come back to it anyway. So you mentioned you run, you've got these middle school, middle school groups that you run.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  27:46  
Well, to be totally fair, I don't actually run them anymore. They run themselves. And so starting tomorrow, Thursday, my dungeon Master's guild starts again. And they meet with me twice a week for 45 minutes. And they plan. I coach them on planning their tables. And then Friday afternoons after school. We have heroes Hall, which is our big d&d after school group. And right before COVID. Last time we had it. We have over 50 kids, which is a lot for a school of 250 kids.

Brian Wiggins  28:22  
Yeah, it is. Wow, that's really awesome.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  28:26  
It really is. And everybody, I just cannot wait. d&d Club starts up again, October 21. And people are about you know, ready to chew their own arms off. But we have to wait for fall sports to be done. Yeah, because we have a lot of crossover. Right. It's a small school. Yeah, I

Brian Wiggins  28:45  
can imagine. But so what was the How? So actually, let's talk about the DNS code a little bit. What are you how are you coaching the kids that are pro dungeon masters? fledgling Dungeon Master? Yeah. What do you what do you teach them about session zero.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  29:03  
So I have First of all, I always have them work in pairs. Logistically, that's just easier in case one of them's absent, but it also helps if somebody gets stuck. somewhere. I love session zero. And I love safety tools. And I think safety tools are something that you can use with kids of all ages. And so one of the things that we'll do is have everybody write out like what do I want to see in this? You know, what do I want to do? What do I really not want to do? What am I maybe okay with doing? What else should you know about me as a player and things that I like or don't like, right and that's that's as simple as we get. Or as complicated as we get and then we compile it all together. And kids are fine with that. And they also they love the x card. But we do have physical x card where you get To cross your hands and go, when you're really uncomfortable, and then that will come out. Last year when I did it with my sixth grade, every time they talked about something that made them uncomfortable they'd go, which went over super, super well during the puberty talk and how?

Brian Wiggins  30:20  
Oh, that's he? Yeah, I can. I would want to play that x card a lot. Right? Yeah. Like when Mark when when dad decided to have the talk, there was no don't want it.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  30:33  
So I think when I'm doing my own seats, we do here off haul, partially where there are so many new and sort of fledgling players that we do sessions zero, but in terms of like crazy backstory and stuff, where it's sort of slowly rolling out the mechanics of how to play and what's the dragon born and what's tabaxi and things like that. So it's really more of the logistics of it. And then I'll say, so I'm, I'm actually working with a little group right now. And, you know, the first day we just talked about, like skill checks. And then we took a look at, well, what oh, what does the half work look like? Okay, what does a gnome look like? And then, today, we were, well, what's the Paladin? And then oh, what's your back home? Man? You were a gladiator. And now you're a fighter. I wonder how you got out of being a gladiator. Right? So. So I don't think with kids of the way that we do it. It's not even like a session zero. There's several sessions zeros, and they're kind of ongoing as we get more capacity. DND is a lot to just sort of put into your head all at once.

Brian Wiggins  31:52  
Yes. Yes. I'll tell you one of the things that gave me the courage to get back behind the screen and start running games, again, was watching Chris Perkins, run a game with Jerry and running one of the acquisitions incorporated games, and having him pull out the DM guide and start looking up a rule. Because in my head, it was always man, I got to know all this stuff. I got to have it down. And then you see the guy who wrote the freaking thing. Bring out the book is here. Remember? I was like, Listen, if Chris Perkins doesn't know all the rules at the top of his head, and has to reference it, it's okay that I do too. And I

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  32:33  
don't really care about the rule. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, yeah, there you go. There you go. The end of conversation, Mary, I Paladin doesn't really care that much about the rules.

Brian Wiggins  32:43  
Alright, so it's been great having you on?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  32:48  
In probably everything, but it is specifically true about d&d, because who cares? Yeah. Do you do believe so cup get you, all you want to do is make sure you're having fun if you know, the real cool is my favorite rule. I would so much rather if a kid or a player anybody has this great idea. Let's figure out how to make it work. I'm not going to keep like an important piece of lore, you have to know hidden behind the dice roll that you failed. Yeah, needlessly complicated.

Brian Wiggins  33:19  
So actually, this is actually a good thing here that you just mentioned. That happens, right? It's, it's, it's the thing where they're gonna discover this important thing. And they wrote a one. And Alright, you can't reward them for the one but they need this piece of lore. How would you adapt in that situation? So that way, you're not negating the, one of the key mechanics of any game, whatever it is, you know that that d 20 role or whatever. So you're not completely negating the power of that. But you're still making sure that you're achieving and they're achieving what they want to do. How would you go about like, dealing with that kind of situation where like, all my players are rolling crappy, and they're not getting through anything, you know that that happens. So how would you go about dealing with that?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  34:05  
Yeah, so the first thing is, I wouldn't hide it behind a dice roll. If it's something they have to have. I let them have it. Right. There's no reason if you have to know that the key is in the second bedroom. Why would I keep that from you? Yes. Then you're just going to like it's just frustrating. Right? But yeah, sure, sometimes. I personally find failure to be really hilarious. Yeah. And so we try to make failure be as interesting as possible. Yeah. And so I like the idea of Yes, like, yes, and or Yes, but or no, but or just flat out? No, right. So you're like, well, you wanted to light this torch, and you didn't, but the you know, The flickering flame of the match for a second gave you a hint of where to go or, but you accidentally set someone else's hair on fire around and like and you know, douse it in water and then they roll one, but it turned out to be oil. So now everything's on fire. Right. So now you can see where to go. And now you can see super Wow.

Brian Wiggins  35:22  
Oh, I love that that's, you

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  35:24  
know what I mean? So I don't for me, I don't think it's useful ever to just say no.

Brian Wiggins  35:32  
Yeah. Find a way to say yes.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  35:35  
Find a way to say yes. Or at least to progress the story in a direction. Yeah. Doesn't have to be. Yeah, you did it. But it's like, no, but you see this other interesting thing? Because otherwise? It's just not interesting. Yeah, to have a story where, again, like nothing happens, because everyone's rolling badly. Yeah, you know, and I think you can make interesting things happen. The way that I like to tell stories, is I like to think, what are the main beats of the story? What are the main places and information you get? And you know, who were the main people you get them from? And then go for it. So it's not really sandbox. But it's also not a linear story necessarily, either. Right? Right. I would much rather have you go. Like, if you're doing something like a mansion heist, right at a, we have a story that, that I've run a bunch of times where it's a mansion heist, and you go in, you know, disguise it because everybody likes a ball. And, you know, there's lots of different people you can talk to who have different information. And you can eventually piece it together with with whatever you end up doing. So I think giving them that choice is really more interesting. Yeah, than just a linear story anyway,

Brian Wiggins  37:03  
yeah. You give them a path forward. It's just do they have an IF Do they have the information they need? Or are they going in without some of that information? Which either way it makes for the story to be interesting, you know?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  37:16  
Well, and you know, the, if they're missing a really important piece of information, yeah, that is going to hold up the whole thing, then either, I need to make that information. Not important. Yep. Give them as a chance. It's Schrodinger as information, right? routing is Schrodinger puzzle. It is both there and not there until I decide that it's there. Because it's not real. So I can just switch up the order of the rooms, right? Or I can, you know, make the note about the key, be in somebody else's pocket. Find it in that person's pocket, cuz not a real pocket. That's right, you can do whatever you want. Right, if you want it like,

Brian Wiggins  38:12  
but then they feel their perception roll. I know, right? Oh, I have a T shirt. And it has a picture of a D 20. On a one. Right? And it says, You You try to push the orc off the side of the camp. But instead, you correct him gently. He is uncomfortable.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  38:32  
Isn't that a great story? I love it. Ultimately, the better story

Brian Wiggins  38:36  
my brother gave me that and yeah, my brother and sister in law gave it to me and I would just laugh my ass off for a solid minute.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  38:44  
Oh, the first time I saw that I laughed really hard. And but really, it's a more interesting story. But now you have this like weird flirtation,

Brian Wiggins  38:54  
work and now go weird. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. While we chop up each other's grills, I don't know which one I should back away. Yeah, but I'm not gonna back away.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  39:07  
are mad No, maybe NAB maybe now. You know, he confesses his affection for you. And now you're all friends. And that's weird. Yeah, exactly. unexpected. So maybe you've got a new boyfriend. And it's really nice. Like, what?

Brian Wiggins  39:23  
Exactly it where to have works come from

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  39:27  
the world is your oyster. That's the best part of RPG.

Brian Wiggins  39:35  
So what do you do if you're running a session? And again doesn't have to be d&d, it could be any session? What is it that you're bringing to the table as far as your plans? Are you someone who has the volumes of lore but you only have a little bit prepared for that individual session? Or do you have extensive notes? Are you completely flying by the seat of your pants like how we're what's your planning look like?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  39:59  
Ah, So my planning, so I teach improv. And so I am an improper and improper say yes and right. And the two sort of key things about improv? Well, the three things are saying yes, and raising the stakes, and listening and trying to include what other people were putting down. And also callbacks, where you pull something from? Well, a lot of humor is referencing things that people already know. Yeah. And what were unexpected, that didn't expect to think about them. So I that always is in all the gameplay. But I again, like I said, Before, I like to have all the sort of a major, or at least some of the major points, the next sort of set of major points that needs to happen, kind of in my mind, and then exactly how they get to those, we can sort of figure out as we go,

Brian Wiggins  41:00  
right? So yeah, just have an idea of like, these are like the three or four things that they're going to need to know. And then just let the chaos of players,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  41:11  
right. So I'm in I was a DM for a season on the black feather Guild, which is this great little twitch channel. And one of the things that they did that the party did is they're walking down the road and on either side of the road are these terribly poisonous, and hypnotic flowers. And so they're walking right down the middle of the road, and they start to see these signs that are like nice people ahead. You should come here, whatever, right. And as I go on and on, and in the end, it did end up being nice people had, they just were kind of socially awkward, but and also magical, right? But that's, I knew I wanted them. I knew I wanted them by the end of the session to have gotten to the Seder camp. And I knew I wanted them not like to have to think about it and decide if they were going to trust them or not. And so I came up with this idea, but I had no idea what they were going to do with it. Yeah. Right. And so it was interesting. And they were kind of dabbling. So then I made somebody get poisoned. He would like pick up the pace. A little bit of urgency to the process. But that to me is was enough of the outline. And then I could take it from there. And if they'd all decided to, like sit in the middle of the road for the rest of the session, you know, we would have made it work. Yeah, but would have had him get run over. Just for some urgency.

Brian Wiggins  42:52  
We've had sessions, where it's just been almost entirely about what they're eating. And they've been Yeah, truly fun sessions, because we got really deep into some really ridiculous stuff. And

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  43:06  
so you would love red wall, the book, The Brian jocks books read while they're, they have lots of eating in them. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, right? It's not. So this season, I was on the black feather Guild, we had 15 episodes to run the whole thing. And so I had to figure out, you know, what the arc was and make sure that we hit those points. Right. But if you're playing a home game, who cares exactly what I spent the entire time talking about what they eat, and they're having a great time.

Brian Wiggins  43:38  
Right? Absolutely. Yeah. No. Oh, losing here for a second here. You know, we're good. Okay. Mostly for a second day.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  43:55  
We spend most of the time pick. Oh, sorry. That's okay. Power of outfits was too much. Oh, but yeah, you know, like, it's not. Well, are you there?

Brian Wiggins  44:07  
Yeah, I'm here. Yep. I'm here. Yes.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  44:11  
Okay, me too.

Brian Wiggins  44:16  
I'm so I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  44:23  
No, just, I think going with what your players want to do and what they're interested in is important, because unless you have a deadline of, you know, an actual play audience or something like that, it really doesn't matter what they do as long as they're having fun.

Brian Wiggins  44:41  
So, when you have, I'll say, Well, I mean, if you have someone actually at your table, and I know for the last year or so a lot of games have been virtual just by the nature of our times. On the slider scale of one extreme being Wargaming tactical the others To being completely theater of the mind, where do you fall on that sliding scale for tabletop games like this?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  45:08  
I'm pretty theater of the mind. If it gets really complicated. You know, one time they were trying to destroy a dam, and that, and they had to put charges, like every certain amount of feet to make it work. And so for that, I'll draw a picture or have something but I'm definitely more theater the mind because again, I'm less interested. Like, I don't want somebody saying the not work because they're two feet too far. Yeah, like, you know, what I mean? or whatever, like, I want the flexibility. And, you know, I have ADHD, and like, I can't keep track of minis my life, I don't, I have so many dice. And I only really ever use virtual dice. Because I know where those are.

Brian Wiggins  45:58  
See, I have ADHD as well. And I'm, I find that I actually need some of that physical stuff there. Cuz I'm like, I'm trying to keep track of where everything is in my head. And I just can't and yeah, it this is this and this, it afflicts everybody in a different way.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  46:15  
Um, I really think that we are attracted to role playing games. Because there's a lot of us out there. Yeah, one of the things. So I guess what I'm thinking about is, for me, one of the reasons I like being a Game Master is it's one of the few things that I do in my entire life that takes up my whole brain, my whole ADHD brain, right, because I have to keep so many things in my mind. I mean, that's one of the reason I like improv as well, because it fills up my whole mind. And you have to keep track of all the characters and the lore and the weather and juggle what everybody's doing and what they want. And even as a player, you know, I have to doodle or embroider or, you know, play Candy Crush, stupid to keep my, my fingers busy. And as a DM, my whole self is busy with with all this and I think that's fascinating. And I wonder if there's a connection, because there do seem to be a lot of people with ADHD and sort of related things in our community. And I love that.

Brian Wiggins  47:31  
I would Yeah, I think I'd have to agree with you because you have something that's you can't you there's no downtime as a DM. Right, right. Even if the players are carrying the moment, for several minutes, you still have to be tuned in because what if they say something and it completely derails things? Or just, you know, yeah, yeah, you have to have that have to have that ear out for the entire time. Whereas the player, if you're not directly involved, it's easy for your mind to wander, you know, and, and, right, yeah.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  48:06  
And the sort of adrenaline of, you know, trying to keep everything on the rails is like, the adrenaline is like the best ADHD. So, oh, no,

Brian Wiggins  48:18  
it can be Yeah, I think the other thing is that so I know with me, it's one of those things that if you're, if I'm interested in something, I have an easier time paying attention to it. If I'm not interested, it's hard. You know, it's it's in. So yeah. This is the kind of thing that can definitely make it a little bit easier to focus for a couple of hours.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  48:45  
Right, definitely.

Brian Wiggins  48:46  
The meds help, too, but

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  48:49  
right, but people with ADHD thrive in those sort of like adrenaline. Yep. That's part of it. So, you know, and that's part of the fun too, is that even as a player, you get to imagine yourself as high pressure situations.

Brian Wiggins  49:11  
Yeah, exactly. Which is kind of fun. I think. I wonder if it's because with being ADHD because we're overstimulated, we're able to take in more information we're used to taking in For more information, and now doing something with it, as opposed to just being distracted by it.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  49:29  
I about role playing games, is that it's sort of structured semi structured socialization, which a lot of kids and people get when they do sports. Because everybody knows what they're supposed to do or what the goal is. Right? And this allows people who aren't necessarily sports people, or even people who are to have that same comradery of we're all on a team. We all basically know what we're supposed to do and we all have a goal. Yeah, now is really helpful for emerging adults and everyone, but you know, middle schoolers, it gives them a structure to sort of build friendships around and build teamwork and capacity around in a way that if you don't do team sports, you don't necessarily get that chance or, or whatever clubs or you know, things that have those sort of goals, and you don't necessarily get that chance. And this is a very different system that enables that to happen. So that's pretty cool.

Brian Wiggins  50:35  
Yeah, I would agree with that. 100%. Um, I mean, I did sports all through high school. I do Brazilian jujitsu now, so I definitely, you know, kind of did nerd and never say jock, but you know, my lettered in a couple sports, you know. But yeah, they say that. One of the big things about student athletes is that they are coachable. Right. And people who don't necessarily who people who don't play sport, not okay, not obviously, everyone, but people who don't play sports aren't necessarily exposed to having someone tell them you're doing this wrong, do it differently, and how and however that's delivered. And that's such a valuable skill of being able to receive that feedback and change, and maybe even have that little bit of competitiveness, you know, that that could be a good thing? In the right measure? Right. So yeah, d&d would be a non sport version of that, absolutely. Where you're getting a chance to see consequences of your actions in a in a in a safe environment.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  51:46  
Absolutely. And I think that's really very important and try out all sorts of different things. Because unlike sports, you know, you can if you're playing soccer, you can be the like, middie, or the human being the attack or the goalie, like that's kind of like it or a defender. But in role playing games, you have so many different choices, you can try out lots of different things.

Brian Wiggins  52:09  
Absolutely. Well, I'm going through all the talking points, you know, we've actually hit on most of these already, just with the talking about, like improv and all the other stuff. So Oh, okay, here's a good one. Here's a question a community question. And I remembering this because it was very, it was framed very humorously, and it got some really great answers. So someone on the DM Academy subreddit, put as their post, I had to kill one of my players. Now, they meant character. Not the player they did not actually have to, because then all the responses were I do Do you need a SOP, and you need a trash bag, and you just need to get through it. It's gonna be messy, just get. But this is actually something and I'm always reminded of like, when Mr. Hooper died on Sesame Street that gave kids the reason why they decided to address that on Sesame Street back in the 80s. Was, let's give people a chance to kids are going to have to deal with death. At some point. Let's use this as a teachable moment. So in d&d, have you had to deal with character death with your with with the with the young ones? And if you have, like, how, how do you go about addressing that with them? Especially if it's someone who's played a character for maybe more than a couple sessions.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  53:35  
We don't do a lot of character death. But my, that is up to the discretion of my student DMS, right. Um, but you have to, you know, if someone's going to die, they should either do it really heroically or incredibly stupidly. So it's either like this big sacrifice that you make to like, make sure that the party is whatever, like, at the big, bad, evil guy kind of final thing, you shouldn't just like die in some roadside conflict with a bandit. Or you should do something so incredibly stupid that everyone told you not to do it, and they do it anyway. And then you die. And then that's what's called logical consequences. Right? And I don't,

Brian Wiggins  54:21  
so you're either getting a Congressional Medal of Honor or you're getting the Darwin award.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  54:25  
Right, exactly. And I think that's important, right? Because we don't just kill off people's characters, you know, just roll off the main characters. This is not Game of Thrones. We are. But that being said, actions do have consequences. And that's actually one of the norms of our tables is actions have consequences in game and in real life. So be mindful. And if they do something real stupid and get themselves killed, then they can. I mean, it's pretty hard to kill off a character in d&d, right? It really is. We have Yeah. I mean, like kayode but right and beat fall unconscious by the time

Brian Wiggins  55:07  
yeah then the fail three death saves on top.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  55:11  
And then you know medicine checks and all hopefully you got a cleric or whatever, but it happened to me as a character was completely unexpectedly I was playing a character who is a real coward and he was hiding up in a cliff like in a cave and tried to like shooting out at a drag, like a scolding dragon, and then the dragon saw him and scalded him to death, which was terrible. And then he fell off a cliff. And like kept falling off the cliff and died. And it was like extreme death though meter, you know, and the Diablo was horrified. But like the amount of points, you know, hit points he lost, he was like a pancake. He wasn't,

Brian Wiggins  55:54  
it's like you can't shut up. There's nothing you can do. At a certain point, even as much as you can like, as much as you rule the world. It's like you can't, like I'm sorry, you fell 300 feet off of a cliff after being hit by a sprawling dragon. I can't say that you're not dead. You're right. And you can't be angry, and you can't be angry. It's

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  56:12  
like, Well, no, we're all like. Alright, I guess that's how it is at that at the end, they use part of the dragon's hoard to you know, have a good conversation with some necromancers. And it all kind of worked out. But no, nice. Yeah, exactly. But I don't, we don't have a ton. I mean, because of Stan dia, because it's good. Most of the time, we don't kill people off. You know, there's lots of other games where you're much more likely to have character death. And then the people who are more interested in that will sort of gravitate towards those as they get older if they're interested in role playing games, right. Yeah. So. And again, I wouldn't say that all of my students are super interested in combat. Like a lot of them want to flirt with NPCs. Again, a lot of all pets all the time.

Brian Wiggins  57:15  
If that's the game you want, then that is the game you'll get that is exactly having fun. You're having fun. I like that. So what is one tip you would have for a brand new dm or a GM? Someone who's brand spanking new, they still have the fresh, new dm smell on them?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  57:36  
Well, I mean, this is what I deal with all the time. Right?

Brian Wiggins  57:39  
They don't they don't they don't quite smell like their players tears just yet.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  57:42  
Yeah. Um, I would say, my DMS, my dm, Excel and the DMS that I train. We're not, we're not combative with players. We're just, we're there to play a different role, right? We're the narrator slash settings slash minor characters. And. And as long as we're all telling an interesting story together, like it's fine if they spend the whole time or, like on a meal, and it's fine. If they go in a completely different direction than you wanted them to write, it's and you don't have to know all the rules. It's, it's about telling a fun story together. And like, you know, the, again, the Wizards of the Coast, like police force is not coming to get you if you make up someone who cares, you know, know, that anyone I have ever played d&d with has ever eaten in their entire lives for any purpose other than recreation, right? Never. Like, no one's ever like, Well, I'd like to, but I have to go get something to eat. Right. Like, go because again, that's not super interesting.

Brian Wiggins  58:55  
Yeah. Yeah. And that

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  58:58  
they're already playing Oregon Trail so they could do the hunting part.

Brian Wiggins  59:02  
Right. Yeah, this is this is true. This is true. So now I know you I know that you said you only really got into ttrpg within the last five years or so. But yeah, even looking back at when you first started running games, what is one tip, you would give that younger version of yourself as a DM?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  59:23  
So yeah, I think just go for it. It's fine. You're doing great. You know, I think that people got to get out of their heads and you'll figure it out. The community is really wonderful, and supportive. And I know that there are places in the community that are really toxic, but the places that I'm at everyone's super, super supportive. They they want to have fun. I I really think that being Part of role playing games has helped keep me sane during COVID. exceedingly an extroverted person and being stuck in my home for months was not a great recipe for mental health. Yeah, being able to do this was super awesome. So I would just say, Okay, here's, here's my practical piece of advice. Every character should be there because they want to be there. If you have a character, somebody, a player, or a character who's playing somebody who's like, just kind of an asshole all the time. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. Or absolutely, yep. Okay, if they're just being an asshole, then like, they need to play a different character. And if they're like, well, this is what my character would do. Oh, God, then their character sucks. It's not how it is, or they need to know play different game. Yeah, right. Like,

Brian Wiggins  1:01:02  
I hate. I hate that. That's what my character would do that I hate those six words. They're the same worst words in role playing the main character, or do it's an excuse for bad behavior of the player.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:01:15  
Right? And it's, there's no reason. There's no reason that a character who is like, really antagonistic towards the rest of the party would be hanging out with that party. Exactly. And that's not interesting storytelling, and it's not interesting play. And even if there's a way that you could figure out how to make an interesting storytelling, this is a group project. And you don't want to be that guy. If your project

Brian Wiggins  1:01:41  
even Gollum, help Frodo get the ring to Mount Doom.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:01:45  
Right. And he was very sympathetic he and interesting as a character, even though he was a complete pain in the ass, right? Yeah. And so I think I think establishing table norms and the expectations and knowing what the game everybody wants to play is really important too. Like, I love wimzie. And everything I do ends up being whimsical in some way. And so I will listen to other people's podcasts or games, and I'm like, this is a very serious world, where a lot of very serious things happen. And that's awesome. But I'm totally not interested in that. Because guess what, I teach Middle School, and there's a lot of really crappy things happening to people all over the world right now and your life. And so like, that's not role playing. For me. That's my real life. So right. I mean, yeah, I pretty and destruction and play and isn't is like, kind of what I do during the day, you know, I'm way more interested in a story that's a little bit more silly. And, and so I think also everybody at the table, having those sessions, zero conversations and saying, like, Well, what do I want to get out of this? Like, all of that isn't sort of woowoo? You know, people need to be able to do that. Yeah. And otherwise, sort of the most dominant personalities take over. And so it's, it's a much more welcoming table when you have a clear idea of what everybody wants at the beginning. And they should all be working towards the same things to tell a good story that that's, I think, the very long version of my advice. Have you

Brian Wiggins  1:03:30  
talked with the DM kids about the DMS guild? Have you ever have you had to have the conversation with them about one? I'm really interested in this because this is a real problem in adult games. For whatever reason, there's any number of reasons why we get those players at the table. And it's not always a conscious effort by that player. But we get toxic players and we get domineering players. And they're not always toxic, because they are just bad people. They may not realize what they're doing. And they're not always domineering, because they're bad people, they just might again, they might not realize that they're doing it. Have you had to talk to your kids about, Hey, this is how to spot a toxic player, not necessarily the net terminology, but how to spot this and how to deal with someone or how, like you said, with improv, making sure everybody gets their turn, how to pivot away from the person who might be monopoly monopolizing everyone's time and trying to interject all the time and allowing some of the quieter people to get their their turn at bat.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:04:34  
So absolutely, we don't Well, I have the advantage as the teacher of being the hammer. If somebody has been a real pain to their dm, I can come in and help with that problem in a way that, you know, no one can come and help me as an adult dm. But I think that comes back to those table norms and So equity of airtime, and this is everyone's story is part of those are part of our norms. And because they're something we talk about every single time we meet as heroes, Hall, we can go back and say, Hey, you know, hey, Calliope, this is equity of airtime is one of the values that we all agreed to. And you've been, we've really had the spotlight on your character a lot. Can you help me? You're so quick and thinking of things. Can you help me put the spotlight on Brian's character this session? And a lot of the times if you can have people are willing to do that? Right? Um, or, you know, can you have your character sort of take that character under their wing? Or how, how can we work as a team, and a lot of times, people want to be helpful. Nobody wants to be that guy that everybody hates at the table. Yeah, right. I nobody wants that. So I think when you have articulated clearly what everybody sort of, like, once that helps, and occasionally, I'll switch kids, like, I'll switch tables with kids, because, you know, I'll have somebody who wants to do a lot of fighting, and they're in the flirting and pets group, or vice versa. Or you know, somebody who's really, really whimsical in a serious group, or vice versa. And so having players who sort of want the same things at the table, I think, is really useful. But I think you can talk about things without them being confrontational. And it's really important, because if we start with this idea that people are not being dicks on purpose, then, right, if we assume good intentions, then it becomes either a skills deficit or an awareness deficit. And so we at least have to give people that chance of saying, like, we've established what the ground rules are, what the norms are for this whole thing. And so when we're not meeting those, we can go back to them and say, Oh, you know, one of our norms is called good leaders need good followers, and good followers need good leaders. We're all there on purpose, we're choosing to be here. So you need to act in a way that allows us to do the thing that we want. And so good leaders need good followers, that your dm cannot make a great story with you if you are not participating actively, yes, and appropriately. But the flip side of that is, the DMS have a responsibility to be prepared know what's going to happen and act like leaders. And if they choose not to do that, you know, good followers need good leaders, too. Yep. And so when a student's like, like, everyone's running around, and I'm like, Well, why do you think that is? You know, do they need a break? Do they are you being boring? You know, is someone monopolizing the time? And a lot of times, they're like, well, I just need a few minutes to figure out this next fight. I'm like, right. So that's why they're running around. Yeah, because you aren't ready. Give them a 10 minute break to go to the bathroom and have a snack and get yourself sorted out. And so I do think a lot of the times bad behavior at the table does come from either a lack of skills or a lack of awareness. Yeah. And then if that's not true, then then they don't need to be in your on at your table. I mean,

Brian Wiggins  1:08:42  
yes, I

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:08:43  
yeah,

Brian Wiggins  1:08:44  
I 100% agree with that. When I started, I started running a game over the summer. Maybe it was this time last year, I forget. Now, it all blends together.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:08:54  
In some time in the now time. There's more time and the now

Brian Wiggins  1:08:59  
than the other now time. A friend of mine from college had written me and said that her two kids wanted to learn how to play d&d. How would they go about doing that? Because they saw it on Stranger Things? Right. Great recruiting. Oh, yeah. And they were like, well, and she's like, well, how would we go about doing that? Are there books we can get? And I said, Well, you could but you're going to spend like 150 bucks. I'm like, why don't I just run a game for you? And the kids are think like a 12 1112. And the other ones like eight ish, I think. And so when we started playing, I did kind of, you know, we'd had a little bit of a session zero, but it was more just like, I need you to make some promises for me. I said, you need to promise me that. You understand? This is for fun that we're telling a story. That if something makes you uncomfortable that you say something either to me or to mom and dad or towards someone else so we can fix it and never lie about your dice rolls. It's okay if you don't succeed But don't lie about your dice rolls. But yeah, I just started like setting the setting the the, the the bar there to say, it's about fun, and you should be comfortable the entire time.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:10:14  
Right? Absolutely. Yeah. And we don't have time to go into this tonight, but I'm gonna be on a panel. For the baton a group called murder hobos wanted question mark. Because what is the role of murder hobos, and especially for kids? A lot of times, we get really squeamish about them being murder hobos. I mean, I personally think it's boring storytelling, right? Like as an adult who is 41 years old. I don't really care about that anymore. But I'm also not an 11 year old boy, who has sat through an entire week's worth of boring lessons. Yeah, from adult women, right? Like, you might just need to go like, I don't burn down the orphanage because they're not real babies. And eventually, you get bored of doing that. And actually, I had this conversation with some eighth graders, the ones that I'm just trying to teach d&d. And I was talking about murder hobos. And they were like, Oh, yeah, that's like in Grand Theft Auto. That's in GTA. Yeah. First you drive around, and you run over all the hookers? And I'm like, Yes. Thank you 14 year old boys. But I'm like, right? Yeah, you run everybody over to get the cops called and you have shootouts and whatever. And then like that gets boring. So then you start a taxi service, or you deliver pizza, or you like, find out where there's kids, right? Like, people. Some of it's just again, like to go back to the Joker, it's fun to be that kind of really chaotic for a while evil thing and try it out. And then it gets super boring. It's just not interesting. Because every time you punch the NPC in the face, they leave. Right or they fight you and then you don't get the information. And if you punch the MPC in the face, I am not giving you the information about where that key is. Never says you punch that guy in the face. So that's a logical consequence.

Brian Wiggins  1:12:17  
Never start with a head. A victim. Uzi they can't feel the next punch.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:12:22  
Exactly.

Brian Wiggins  1:12:25  
I'm struggling with 13 year olds playing Grand Theft Auto know

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:12:29  
it that Yep. But you know what? There's the locus of control. What are the things we control? What are the Yeah, I have no control over that all is who plays Grand Theft Auto. Yeah, and, you know, but but again, it gave them this really great perspective. Yeah, these are, these are not children who are gonna go like run over real

Brian Wiggins  1:12:51  
hook. Oh, I know. And that argument of, you know, that was a big that was a big thing. When you and I were cuz you and I are about two years apart. It was like, oh, violent video games. You know what there is at they've done the studies, they were 000 correlation between violent video games, and people being violent people. There is it 100% correlation with people being violent and people being assholes. Right. Exactly. You know, it's like, cuz we can't Yeah, I mean, I get I mean, Nintendo. There wasn't a lot of violence, but we grew up with Mortal Kombat.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:13:27  
And, right, what's the one where you pull out the spine?

Brian Wiggins  1:13:30  
Mortal Kombat, you've asked them on? class? Oh, yeah, there was Yeah, it was just we grew up with that stuff. It didn't rot our brains.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:13:41  
People love to pearl klatch about the younger generations. But if you really think about what you were doing when you were 14, or thinking about or reading or watching, you know, then you if it's an again, we go back to role playing games is a low stakes environment now, am I going to let them like, you know, do like sexual violence, no extreme violence or any of that kind of stuff? Like absolutely not, right. But like if they want to punch the MPC in the face and see the logical consequence that Yeah, they then that person leaves because that's us to punch in the face like fine. Good. Now you understand the thing. Yeah. And I think that's really important. Yes. And it allows you to try those things out and have those have those conversations in pretty much consequence free environment. But if you get, you know, if you frustrate your team, then you're allowed to have that conversation either in character or in person in a way that you can't have. Isn't lower stakes then like in your friend group, and Yeah,

Brian Wiggins  1:15:00  
yeah, exactly. And I've noticed that when you when you look at a lot of the questions that are posted on the internet in general, but I say like on Reddit, oh, my players are doing this, how do I deal with that? It's like, talk to your players. Talk to them. That's how you solve 90% of the problems is that you? Have you had a conversation with your players? No. Have you had a conversation with this player? Who's who's doing this thing? No. Well, then it starts there.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:15:31  
Right? Well, and it's, you should be playing unless you're getting paid. And even then, you should be playing with people you like to play with? Yeah, if you are not playing with people you like to play with, stop playing with them. Exactly. Or, you know, we just air d&d, which is our home group, which is called that because one of the first things the group did was make a whole bunch of airbnbs. Next door. Um, you know, we just finished the campaign, and it was great. And now we're gonna regroup and start over and say, like, okay, we've been playing this for a couple years, we're done this campaign. We're gonna take a break for a while and just play some board games just look at each other. Then what are we going to do? Like, what do we want? Now? Do we want to play d&d again, now that we've all played it, like one play monster the week or kids on bikes or something like that? Yeah. And what do we want to get out of it? And we know that sort of ask those questions now. And we often have a rotating dm. And so you know, when it's me, it's a lot of whimsy and a lot of theater of the mind. And when it's some of the other people in our group, it's much more minis and tactical maps and fighting. And that's, that's good because it keeps it fresh. Right? And then when somebody says, Oh, I'd like to dm we're all incredibly supportive. Yeah. Because, you know, that's how you get more DMS, again, pretty much not by rule rules, loitering them.

Brian Wiggins  1:17:11  
No, no, no, we do it. The elephant way. We slowly take over their brains.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:17:16  
Yes, exactly. That's another actually piece of new dm advice that you need to know your story really well. If you want to be really comfortable and successful as a DM, knowing those major beats of the story is so much more important than knowing like exactly how long the hallway is. Because again, it's not a real hallway. Who cares? Yeah, if you say it's 70 feet, it's 70 feet, you say it's 100 feet, it's 100 feet, it's Schrodinger solloway. But if you go back to Well, what is the point of the hallway? Right? The point of the hallway is to show that it's creepy here, or the point of the hallway is to allow you to get access to a puzzle or whatever, that's more important. And so I think you lose your players, again, that good leaders need good followers and good followers need good leaders, you lose your players when you're like rifling through a bunch of pages or scrolling on the, you know, on the internet for five minutes, because you're trying to look up the exact HP of, you know, duck Bunny, like nobody cares. Exactly. Like if you don't have it, let's make it up. Who cares?

Brian Wiggins  1:18:27  
I got hit with that once. And I had to look up that the hitpoints of rock because they decided they were going to just cave in a mountain complex. And I was like, can they do this? So but we had fun with it. Because, you know, our search Mojo was pretty good. And is like, you know, I want this to happen. Just give me a second I got to look up rock hp.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:18:53  
Right and, and then that way, I think being transparent. Yeah, it's good. And you'll always have if you're not the person who's the rules lawyer at the table somebody is

Brian Wiggins  1:19:02  
I know it was fine as one of the other players because they all started searching immediately. Because they all wanted it to happen. So they always whoever Google the answer because I'm like, Listen, if you say this is what it is what it is. I'm not gonna argue with you. If you said rock has one hit point. No, I don't believe you. But you know, but But yeah, and and but it came down to not letting that get in the way of the story. And if they we couldn't find anything I would have been Alright, it's got 30 hit points do

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:19:29  
not Yes. And I that don't let the the perfect to get in the way of the good, right. Yes. And so one of my players, when you know when he's the DM if we're doing an eight day travel, we we roleplay out like EA or Random Encounter out all eight days when I do it. It's a travel montage. Yeah. And they're both great ways, but he is such an asset for me. Because that can be like I don't know. What is the HP Iraq and within like three seconds, he knows what HP Iraq is. And so that's not me being like, Oh, your rules lawyer like they know like he, you know, that's a he's sort of the rule and lore keeper archivist. Yeah.

Brian Wiggins  1:20:18  
Well, actually, if you look at page 83, of the handbook, it says right here,

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:20:23  
right? And you know, and like, I don't care if that's how people want to play, and that's fun for them. Yeah, awesome. Like, that's not my table. But that's somebody stable. Yeah, exactly. And as long, that's what goes back to that session zero and norms. Like, what are people wanting to get out of this. And if people are trying to make the most realistic world, they can with rations and 30 feet, you know, per turn, and whatever, like, awesome, that's so great for them. Like, that sounds terrible. And I will never play that game. But I will love it that you are, well, I will help you of other people who will, you know,

Brian Wiggins  1:20:59  
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a call back here. In second edition, and in third edition, there was a thing called encumbrance. And you're supposed to keep track of all of the weight that you were carrying. And that included your weapons, your armor, your treasure, all of it. And at a certain point, you might become over encumbered and you're not able to move. And they thankfully got rid of that in fifth edition. And just made it like, well, they got rid of it at a point where it's like, you don't have a part. There was a spot on your character sheet for writing down how much weight you are carrying. And it's not there anymore. It's just like, Well, no, you can't carry out this entire chest that's filled with gold bricks, because that weighs a lot. You know, it's like, hey, but you're not Yeah, it's not so micro that it's good

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:21:51  
again. Is that an interesting story? No. People defeat a dragon that it's too heavy to take the treasure so they were worried. That's a shitty story.

Brian Wiggins  1:22:00  
Well, so well, the idea that you beat everyone. Oh, we beat the dragon. Yeah. How are you gonna get that home? Oh, that's a fun story. But not well, let's do the math.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:22:11  
Right, you know? Yeah. Well, and that's for me, like when I play Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. I and you can just like whip out these different like ridiculous weapons. And then where do they go? and links pocket? That's so much. Like, that's who cares? I don't really I don't really care where they go. You know, or if you play Final Fantasy. I think it's 12. And you're beating up wolves. And then they drop a T shirt. Like, why is a wolf have a T shirt is loot. But like, it doesn't matter. That's not interesting to me. Yeah. I mean, it is because it's funny. That's why I remember it. Yeah, you know, that's why I'm not like I just get so frustrated with you know, the new Zelda stuff because it's like you every time I turn around my weapons were broken. I'm not actually interested in you know, planned obsolescence. Like, I can go to my my actual toaster for that. So, um, you know, and so it just depends, but some people really love that mechanic.

Brian Wiggins  1:23:18  
the only the only game that I found that it worked that it didn't bug the hell out of me was Witcher three.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:23:25  
Ah, I haven't played that.

Brian Wiggins  1:23:28  
Talk about Tom. I will say talk about Really? And it's funny because how badly CD CD Projekt RED shit the bed with cyberpunk. Right It was the and they got this franchise base and everyone was looking forward to it because of Witcher three because Witcher three is as close in my opinion as close to perfect as you can get with a video game. It had gorgeous visuals. The storytelling was on point. It was fun. You actually I actually cared about the side quests not just as a way of grinding out levels was like No, I want to know what happens here. Because all of it revealed little more details about the story and about Gerald and even the even the mini game they put in there the card game Gwent was fun. And yeah, and it's such a but one of the mechanics was you have your two swords, and as you use them and your armor, the more hits you take this, it will get more and more worn out. And you would eventually have to take it and get it resharpened and it wasn't like terribly expensive to do. But it was one of those things that within the character of who Gerald was and what he was doing as this journeyman that Yeah, you're gonna have to maintain your tools and it wasn't ever like oh, god I gotta go It wasn't like a bothersome thing. It just it fits so well within everything is like well, I gotta go get by I gotta go buy stuff anyway.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:24:52  
Well, it's a story mechanic. Yeah, point to it because it reveals something about who he is and his situation. Another game that does it really, really well is shadows of the Colossus. Yes, an older game, you know, and you're, you're, you're fallible and the whole time as the player, you're like, I don't think I'm actually doing I might be, am I the bad guy, I might be the bad. I am a flawed individual, right and not being able to wander forever or not be able to climb forever like that. Again, it's part of the story we tell, not just sort of like, yeah, this is a reason for this to be needlessly,

Brian Wiggins  1:25:31  
that is another absolutely fantastic game, I wish I wish that they would do. I don't need them to make a Shadow of the Colossus to I don't need that I need because I need whatever the spiritual successor is that they want to do. Just make it and I will buy it and play it because it was so gorgeous and so much fun.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:25:51  
So one of my very favorite games that I'm currently replaying right now with my husband, his Psychonauts. And because Psychonauts two finally came out, like 12 years later, and Psychonauts is another game that I think is really, really wonderful. Um, it's very whimsical, although it has some dark undertones and it's kind of a different style, but it's, it's amazing. You spent a lot of time in people's heads. Hmm, because you're a psycho not like an astronaut. You're a psycho Now,

Brian Wiggins  1:26:24  
check yourself.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:26:25  
Oh my god. Check this out. If you learn nothing else with this podcast, please go play.

Brian Wiggins  1:26:33  
Well, I think that is an ideal place for us to kind of put us a little period at the end. I think that's a good note for us to end on. Awesome. Where can people find you if you should so desire, where can they find you?

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:26:48  
Okay, so you can find me on Twitter at Calliope or at cauldron of Kali and Calliope a cu Ll because not because like my last name Paladin, and um, you can find me on Saturday October 9 at 830. The boat Hata group's charity stream murder hobos wanted question mark. And so that's the pitch for that is. So you are a DM who has made a beautiful immersive world with dynamic NPCs and all the party wants to do is ignore the adventure hook and burn down the orphanage. Is there ever a place for murder hobos at the table especially for young players who will speak for the murder hobos? Certainly not the orphans? It's gonna be fun.

Brian Wiggins  1:27:43  
I like that. Yeah.

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:27:45  
And you can find me sort of a right here and there sometimes in the black feather Guild, doing different things with them when I'm not teaching and you can find me in middle school thinking about Middle School learners quite a bit so awesome. When people want to connect with me, that's that's the kind of stuff I'm interested in. And I'm always happy to help out and love to co think with people about these kinds of things.

Brian Wiggins  1:28:10  
Well, thank you once again, for coming on to my podcast. I am a absolute pleasant exchange and conversation. And we we got to talk man, we spent I I had to tell you, I make notes on the show here. And like I didn't like for my for about 10 minutes. I didn't take any because we were just talking about bad guys and a Jago and I was like super so engrossed. It was like, oh, shoot, I should probably write some of this down. So

Maryanne Cullinan (Culliope)  1:28:40  
see, that's what we like we like we're in that ADHD flow state. That's what we're looking for. Love it. So it's been really fun. Thank you for having me. And, you know, think of us and our murder hobos and floaters and pet owners here in Southern New Hampshire.

Brian Wiggins  1:28:57  
I absolutely. Well, that's it for this episode of hidden roles. Remember, players? If you're in my game, or in Mary and Jane, and you listened to this podcast, your characters just might get Kelvin mollard Yeah, that's the thing. We're the dungeon masters. We can make it a thing. Please make sure to give us a big old five star review on whatever platform you happen to be consuming this podcast on. Please follow the hidden roles podcast on twitter at hidden underscore roles. And you can always give me Brian Wiggins a follow up at the same Brian on Twitter and Instagram. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Brian WigginsSeptember 27, 2021Comment